100 Reasons Why AGW is Overstated or Bunk

[quote]caveman101 wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Here is a little problem for the board’s AGW endorsers:

Why is it the case that even if there is no net loss of Antarctic or Greenland ice, and even if atmospheric temperatures remained exactly the same, the oceans would continue to inexorably rise?

It is the case, but why?[/quote]

really, where does the water come from, mars? rain isnt new water. where did you get this?[/quote]

Actually, water is added to the earth every day. This is not the original article I read many years ago, but it mentions it:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1134/is_n4_v107/ai_20549284/

:slight_smile:

That (addition of ice from space) is a fine point I forgot about entirely.

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Why do you assert that each of the sources of statements showing flaws in AGW has “vested interests” in arguing against it?

For very many of the scientists involved I have no reason to think you’d find a trace of such a thing.

Did it occur to evaluate arguments on their merits not on the persons stating the things?[/quote]

Do you expect anything less from someone in Europe?[/quote]

Next time you have that feeling, look at a Porsche and weep.

Hell, we even build better American cars than Americans.

Cheaper too.

[quote]caveman101 wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:
The Daily Express is ridiculed in Britain for every Monday having a headline about the ‘suspicious’ death of Princess Diana. Their owner is a porn mogul and sensationalism is all they do. I wouldn’t listen to them as a credible scientific source[/quote]

exactly, stop trying to justify your beliefs without having to do any proper research. and a couple of those points are stupid, like CO2 is shown to benefit some organisms - let me know how that works out for you. and that plant thrive off CO2 - i dont refute this, but the CO2 emmissions that people should be worried about are from industries that are pumping out other toxic chemicals and elements into the environment at the same time, would you put your car in your greenhouse because the CO2 emmissions are good for your tomatoes.
fuck you people [/quote]

You might have noticed that noone argues against the restriction of emmissions that have been demonstarted to be harmful, but I think you should beat that strawman until he is dead, dead, dead.

[quote]Bambi wrote:
The Daily Express is ridiculed in Britain for every Monday having a headline about the ‘suspicious’ death of Princess Diana. Their owner is a porn mogul and sensationalism is all they do. I wouldn’t listen to them as a credible scientific source[/quote]

All journalism is sensationalism.

That is so important that it needs to be stated twice.

All journalism is sensationalism.

Some professions start out legitimate and become corrupted over time. Journalism is not such a profession. Journalism cannot become corrupted because it was never a legitimate profession to begin with.

There is absolutely no useful societal purpose achieved by informing plebeians of such banal events as everyday murders, accidents, investigations, scandals, celebrations, and all the other things that newsmedia report on.

Journalists reside at the very bottom of the hierarchy of respectable professions. They are complete parasites, the very definition of the term “talking head”, and as a consequence of this it is easy to understand why so many of them are liberals.

Journalists in war zones are particularly disgusting and should be fired upon freely by both sides. In fact, they should be the first casualties in any armed conflict.

Reading or listening to “the news” takes people into fantasy worlds which provide them an escape from reality. To Joe Nobody from Arkansas, the Middle East is no less a remote and fantastical location than the setting of the Harry Potter novels. CNN might as well report on the daily events and happenings of Narnia.

If newsmedia didn’t exist, people would have to attend to their own lives instead of trying to live vicariously through symbolism and emotional highs over the deeds of others whom they’ll never meet.

Professional sports work on the exact same principle, incidentally. The majority of people aren’t watching for the love of the game, but merely to attain emotional validation through seeing “their” team win. If people viewed the activity objectively they would cheer for whichever team played better on any given day. Pro Sports are almost the equivalent of tampons for men. You will find 1 viewer out of 100 who actually cares about the mechanics of the game; the rest are simply zombies.

Oh, what a world we could have if people actually lived for themselves, if everyone was a self-realized egoist. Instead we suffer mass collectivism and endless delusions, everywhere one turn.

[quote]caveman101 wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Why do you assert that each of the sources of statements showing flaws in AGW has “vested interests” in arguing against it?

For very many of the scientists involved I have no reason to think you’d find a trace of such a thing.

Wouldn’t it make sense to evaluate arguments on their merits not on the persons stating the things? Let alone to evaluate them based on often-false assumptions regarding those persons?[/quote]

i only trust two or three papers published in this country, the express certinly isnt one of them.

I honestly dont care if you believe in man-made global warming.
do you think heads of oils companies want to become world-reviled figureheads of the pollution of the earth - no, it would loose them money and other businesses wouldnt want to be associated with them.
do you think it is sustainable having the entire world economy built on the back of a non-renewable energy source? one that will reach its peak, or ‘bingo fuel’ point in our lifetime?
even if you dont believe in man made global warming, you agree that we should change our energy consumption habits? [/quote]

The problem (among other things) is, that the AGW people are trying to legislate technological advancement. You can’t do that. Imagine if in the 1800s, some folks decided that our “horse and buggy habit” was unsustainable, and soon the world would be overflowing with horse shit. Could they pass laws and restrictions, thereby bringing into existence the automobile? No! Technology evolves and develops on its own, as it should.

There is currently NO cost-effective replacement for fossil fuel. And you can’t tell me that people aren’t working their asses off on the issue. In fact, what you call “oil companies” (I call energy companies, btw), are the biggest spenders on this type of research. Why? 2 reasons : 1, Because their ability to exist in the long-term depends on it, and 2, because the potential financial gain for discovering a cost-effective “new fuel” is HUGE. And advancements have been made, especially in the arena of producing and using natural gas as a fuel. The potential natural gas and gas hydrate reserves are massive, and largely undeveloped. This is a large part of the “Drill more” strategy.

Bill correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe you are referring to something called erosion. It’s a phenomenon where you take land mass from Above sea level and add it to the land mass below sea level, thus like adding marbles to a glass ovf water, the water will rise equivalently. Now ocean levels could also fall if a portion of land was taken from below sea level and raised above it, say in the formation of the hymalayas. However, I think at present, we are experiencing more earth falling below sea level than we are rising above it. The sea level won’t likley fall again until the next time two continents run into eachother and sprout a new mountain range. I mean like in another million years or so.

V

I don’t know the rate of erosion and wasn’t considering it. It must be a contributing factor also though.

What I was referring to is thermal expansion.

Truly vast quantities of ocean water are colder both than the ocean surface above them and the Earth below them. This is because of “cold” left over from ages when the Earth was colder than now, which has been the vast majority of the time.

Even if air temperatures remain identical, these waters inevitably warm – slowly – as heat flows into them from both of these directions.

As the oceans average about 4000 meters deep, it takes a very tiny percentage of thermal expansion to yield the approximate 2 mm/year rise in sea level that has been the long term trend.

A 4 meter rise would be 1 part in 1000; a 4 mm rise one part in a million; and a 2 mm rise about one part in two million.

Or as such tiny increases in temperature or fractions of thermal expansion or such depths of water are hard to visualize, imagine that warming – from coming ever-so-slightly closer to equilibrium with temperatures above and below without air temperatures having to increase at all – comes in the form of some single layer of water increasing in temperature by one degree. Say from 10 C to 11 C.

How deep a layer of water would have to warm by that much to yield 2 mm of vertical expansion per year?

Roughly 11 meters.

Not a tremendously thick layer to have to warm so little in the course of a year.

(One could look at it as an average of about an inch thickness per day of water warming by one degree to have an idea of what sort of rate is involved.)

Now of course the actual problem of thermal expansion of the oceans is far more difficult for many reasons. For example, the coefficients of expansion are quite different at different temperatures, ocean circulation is involved, and rate of heat flow from the warmer Earth below may not be adequately known. Even if all data necessary for a good model were available, it would be a very complex task to make a good physical model.

Though certainly it would be a far simpler task than modeling the entire climate.

Anyway, the point is, it’s long been known that the oceans continually rise during interglacial periods. Most of the ocean is still cold, below thermal equilibrium, from the previous Ice Age and so it doesn’t take actual warming of the surface to warm the oceans. The same surface temperature, combined also with geothermal heat – though this is a much smaller factor: I mention the temperature difference there to show that the water is out of thermal equilibrium i in both directions and thus the coldness is not a steady-state condition) – acts to slowly (exceedingly slowly, but that is all that is required) rewarm the oceans, which inevitably raises sea level.

Whether surface air temperatures are a fraction of a degree higher or not, or even a degree or two higher, is a rather small difference compared to the temperature differences that already exist which drive rewarming of the oceans.

The Mississippi River carries about 210 x 10^6 tons per year. [see Scott M. Mclennan “Weathering and Global Denudation”, Journal of Geology , 101:2, p. 296)

That works out to be 210 x 10^9 kg per year. There are 2400 kg per cubic meter, so dividing we have 210 x 10^9 kg per year / 2400 kg per cm = 87,500,000 cubic meters per year. A good assumption is that the other rivers emptying into the Gulf probably are equivalent to another Mississippi River. Thus we will assume that 175,000,000 cubic meters per year are deposited

Here is an estimate of how many cubic meters of sediment is dumped into just the gulf of mexico Annually.

V

For the record I’m not supporting or denying ‘climate change’ ‘global warming’ etc just pointing out where the source is from. I think both sides have vested interests - i.e. environmentalists in the UK (george monbiot etc) hold some very dodgy political views and I think entrusting our political interests to any heavyily environemntalist group would result in power shortages and the imposing of some very dodgy quasi-Marxist ideology - these are people who ‘wanted’ recession (Bring on the Recession – George Monbiot) but also those denying climate change have vested interests as well.

From my point I do not understand why gradually moving over to safer, less environmentally harmful resources that are PROVEN to work and have been developed extensively is an inherent bad thing. If oil stays at where it was at last summer, companies will HAVE to find other ways to work or our economies will come creaking to a halt.

[quote]Bambi wrote:
For the record I’m not supporting or denying ‘climate change’ ‘global warming’ etc just pointing out where the source is from. I think both sides have vested interests - i.e. environmentalists in the UK (george monbiot etc) hold some very dodgy political views and I think entrusting our political interests to any heavyily environemntalist group would result in power shortages and the imposing of some very dodgy quasi-Marxist ideology - these are people who ‘wanted’ recession (Bring on the Recession – George Monbiot) but also those denying climate change have vested interests as well.

From my point I do not understand why gradually moving over to safer, less environmentally harmful resources that are PROVEN to work and have been developed extensively is an inherent bad thing. If oil stays at where it was at last summer, companies will HAVE to find other ways to work or our economies will come creaking to a halt.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone is against a stance like that, but there are plenty of us who are against the government getting involved with that. The markets will take care of it eventually if we really are running out of oil or whatever, but the government will just cripple us further by passing these insane regulations to reduce CO2 by an overwhelmingly miniscule amount.

V

There’s a funny thing where if the markets are not interfered with, and the owner of an oil field actually believes that oil will be worth far, far more in the future than what he can obtain for it today, he’ll save pumping it for later.

The reason many producers are operating at capacity is because – actually being in the field and having their own money at stake – they don’t themselves believe the world will be out of oil in 10 years or what-have-you.

Most would find it interesting to find a graph showing price of oil over time corrected to constant dollars.

Year after year, decade after decade, the criers have been insisting that oil prices would inevitably skyrocket as scarcity finally arrived: but year after year, decade after decade, excluding fairly short bubbles it has been a wrong prediction that real price (corrected for inflation) would increase.

As Vegita said, the markets will take care of it. When those who really know what they are doing and it’s their own money at stake believe scarcity will drive prices in the future, they will obtain those higher prices in the future by holding barrels to sell then instead of now.

And also, the act of holding barrels to sell later instead of now reduces supply in the present, thus increasing price in the present. So it is not that pumping reduces to zero, but rather that supply provided and quantity demanded equal each other in the most efficient way that those with their own dollars at stake know how to do.

[quote]Bambi wrote:
From my point I do not understand why gradually moving over to safer, less environmentally harmful resources that are PROVEN to work and have been developed extensively is an inherent bad thing. If oil stays at where it was at last summer, companies will HAVE to find other ways to work or our economies will come creaking to a halt.[/quote]
That’s not the plan the AGW folks have. The plan is to hammer the energy industry with an oppressive tax to force a transition to “clean energy”. The problem? These so-called clean sources are highly inefficient and upwards of 3X as expensive per kwH as energy from gas or coal-fired plants. In addition, wind and solar are unstable and seasonal sources, which MUST be bolstered and stabilized by constant-level generation from fired production. As more “clean energy” is mandated, energy prices will syrocket. Ask yourself this: Are you willing to pay TRIPLE OR MORE on your electric bills because you are THAT sure of impending climate doom?

Especially when it now is clear that the scientists pushing the concept have been hiding things, manipulating data, and actively silencing any dissenting scientific viewpoint?

Obama himself admits it:

Then claims that “changing lightbulbs” will make up for the increase down the road. Bullshit.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
:slight_smile:

That (addition of ice from space) is a fine point I forgot about entirely.[/quote]

yeah, that made me lol
bill: water levels are increasing
me: from where? space?
science: yes
me: :frowning:

That’s not the plan the AGW folks have. The plan is to hammer the energy industry with an oppressive tax to force a transition to “clean energy”. The problem? These so-called clean sources are highly inefficient and upwards of 3X as expensive per kwH as energy from gas or coal-fired plants. In addition, wind and solar are unstable and seasonal sources, which MUST be bolstered and stabilized by constant-level generation from fired production. As more “clean energy” is mandated, energy prices will syrocket. Ask yourself this: Are you willing to pay TRIPLE OR MORE on your electric bills because you are THAT sure of impending climate doom?

Especially when it now is clear that the scientists pushing the concept have been hiding things, manipulating data, and actively silencing any dissenting scientific viewpoint?

Then claims that “changing lightbulbs” will make up for the increase down the road. Bullshit.[/quote]

the world will still have to develop and implement these changes though. oil and gas will not last forever.
lightbulbs is a bit pointless in my view too.

[quote]caveman101 wrote:
That’s not the plan the AGW folks have. The plan is to hammer the energy industry with an oppressive tax to force a transition to “clean energy”. The problem? These so-called clean sources are highly inefficient and upwards of 3X as expensive per kwH as energy from gas or coal-fired plants. In addition, wind and solar are unstable and seasonal sources, which MUST be bolstered and stabilized by constant-level generation from fired production. As more “clean energy” is mandated, energy prices will syrocket. Ask yourself this: Are you willing to pay TRIPLE OR MORE on your electric bills because you are THAT sure of impending climate doom?

Especially when it now is clear that the scientists pushing the concept have been hiding things, manipulating data, and actively silencing any dissenting scientific viewpoint?

Then claims that “changing lightbulbs” will make up for the increase down the road. Bullshit.[/quote]

the world will still have to develop and implement these changes though. oil and gas will not last forever.
lightbulbs is a bit pointless in my view too.
[/quote]

My point is that you can’t LEGISLATE new technology into existence. Are people working hard on the next source of energy? Of course! The technology will happen when it happens. We are not “running out” of petro-based fuels any time soon. The global warming thing is part of a larger agenda to :
A- Make money for people who profit off the business side of it.
B- Make research grant money (ie. jobs) for AGW scientists.
C- Make tax/regulatory money for government agencies.
D- Control people.

For example, it may be the case that the laws of nature and existence of natural resources and so forth make it possible for a thin durable film to be produced at very low cost that can convert solar energy to DC voltage at high efficiency.

Hooray, if so! I hope it is true.

But a politician or group of politicians saying the government is going to make it happen is lying to you.

As HG says, it will happen when it happens, if it does.

Or take fusion power.

Ever since at least the 1970’s, it’s been “thirty years away” from commercial feasibility.

It’s still “thirty years away.”

Despite government billions.

But could it be that the laws of nature allow the possibility? Who knows, quite likely it can be done economically when the know-how is there.

Government is not so great at increasing know-how.

[quote]caveman101 wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
:slight_smile:

That (addition of ice from space) is a fine point I forgot about entirely.[/quote]

yeah, that made me lol
bill: water levels are increasing
me: from where? space?
science: yes
me: :([/quote]

You didn’t touch the other two reasons the water is rising though, Temporal expansion and erosion. Do you believe those exist? 175,000,000 cubic meters of sediment are dumped in the gulf of mexico alone annually. A cubic meter is equivalant to 1000 liters. So thats 175,000,000,000 liters of material that is being added just to the gulf of mexico annually. I am trying to find a global erosion figure but i’m having a hard time doing it, right now all I can come up with is individual rivers. I may try to add up all the major world rivers and see how much that is equivalent to. In any case we can make a small leap of faith and say probably at least 1,000,000,000,000 liters of material (displacing that much water upwards) enters the ocaeans annually.

Now another funny thing is that scientists have stidied sedimentary layers, and found that they have been the largest when the planet was cooler and the smallest when the planet was warmer. Thier best guess, Colder climates are less hospitable to vegitation, and vegitation slows erosion. So when it gets really warm and all the planties thrive, the erosion of the earth slows down and the sea levels actually rise less quickly. So if you want to slow rising sea levels we actually need to increase global temparateures. Of course thermal expansion will still happen but you can’t win em all, Maybe people in 10,000 years will need to start moving out of New York City and Miami or something. I think that would be not only funny, but cool also. Imagine the scuba diving you could do!

V

Hey sorry to get off topic here, but New York City being under water got me thinking. How hard would it be to float a city? I mean get underground and start making huge spaces and then fill them with some sort of foam, but it would have to be really deep and thick, You would have to do some engineering to see how boyant the foam was and how much of it you would need to float say double the weight of the city just to be safe. Anyways, I wonder if it would be something we try to do instead of just abandoning a city like NY to rising sea levels.

V

A sea wall would be the way to go. For an island the size and value of Manhattan, it’s quite feasible.